Talk:Dutch angle

Origins

What are the origins of the expression? Why 'dutch'?

--Unclevortex 11:54, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

The origins provided in the article are contrived and inaccurate. It would be better to relate to the Anglo-Dutch wars related derogatives for the Dutch used by the English. if nobody objects I will update this page.

Theking2 (talk) Theking2 (talk) 20:02, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

There are a few relevant comments below, and also recent changes of the article. Before you go ahead, you'll probably want to check them.

As often is the case in questions regarding the etymology of a term, there are few sources, they are often contradictory, and it's hard to tell which sources are reliable and on which other sources they are based.

I don't have access to the OED currently given as a source. I feel that the 'derogative' etymology makes more sense than the 'German' etymology, but I'm not sure. — Chrisahn (talk) 21:03, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

The relevant page says: "The technique was apparently introduced by German Expressionist film-makers: Dutch here is used to mean 'German'." This seems perfectly plausible to me, and certainly more plausible than the idea that the name has something to do with the Anglo-Dutch wars of the 1600s. "Dutch" continued to mean "German" in colloquial American English until relatively recently: see for example Pennsylvania Dutch, or, for a more low-brow example, the character of Dutch Schaefer in Predator. Zacwill (talk) 01:37, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Example, please!

It is in fact quite difficult to understand this article without a sample picture.

--Philopedia 12:08, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

This is a random example... http://www.thestar.com.my/archives/2004/4/24/features/f_pg02dutch.JPG

Maybe someone could take a photo like this and put it in public domain? I don't have a camera myself :(

--Unclevortex 01:34, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I uploaded a photo I took. It's not perfect, a bit blurry, but it'll do for now.

--Unclevortex 23:36, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

There is another article on the same exact angle, under the name Dutch camera angle.

-- Anonymous 19:33, 5 March 2006

DEFINITELY need some pictures here. Several examples, diagrams and photos. Shouldn't be difficult for someone who knows what they are (I'd do it myself, but I'm not quite sure) 86.185.191.230 (talk) 12:18, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Nearly 2013! Currently no illustration! Rather a necessity for this article. 94.193.126.239 (talk) 16:22, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

The angles were widely used in German cinema of the 30's and 40's, hence its name. - What? What do Germany and Holland have to do with each other? Or is it another case of mistranslated Deutsch, like with the Pensylvania Dutch?82.83.8.92 12:17, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Huh?

"A Dutch angle does not use the X, Y or Z axes, but rather an unconventional diagonal axis from which the camera shoots."

From a geometrical stand point, this is nonsense. What are the X, Y and Z axes? Left/right, up/down and forwards/backwards in a co-ordinate system defined by the orientation of the camera? If so, how can a camera "not use" them when filming at a Dutch angle? Perhaps this makes more sense:

"A Dutch angle is composed by an arbitrary rotation in the axis defined by the direction of the camera such that the horizon is no longer parallel with the top of the frame."

-- Anonymous 11:20, 6 June 2006 (GMT)

Dutch angles make the verticals no longer parallel to the side of the frame. Horizons are very often, perhaps even usually, not parallel to the top/bottom o the frame. Or does horizon here mean some conceptual horizontal instead of, say, the meeting of floor and wall in a room? --Doug vanderHoof, Oct 16, 2011

Spoiler?

Terry Gilliam has often used Dutch angles in his films, including The Fisher King, Twelve Monkeys, and Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, representing madness, disorientation from time travel, and drug psychosis respectively.

In the Twelve Monkeys you don't really know if it's disonrientarion from time travel or madness... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 189.5.136.36 (talk) 04:29, 20 December 2006 (UTC).

Batman TV show

The Batman (TV series) used tilted camera angles a lot, especially when they were fighting in the lair of one of the villians. AnonMoos 21:38, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd like some proof (citation needed?) that the angle sometimes actually is called "Batman angle", and if the example you gave is the reason for it. seriema 14:55, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

The Third Man

"The 1949 film The Third Man makes extensive use of Dutch angle shots, to emphasize the main character's alienation in a foreign environment (and perhaps as a homage to co-star Orson Welles's own heavy use of unusual angles as a director)."

Unless anybody can offer evidence that the Dutch tilts in The Third Man are a tribute to Welles, I'm going to delete the parenthetical comment. Of all the techniques Welles used, Dutch tilts aren't typical, at least not before The Third Man. Reed, on the other hand, used them frequently throughout his career, before and after The Third Man. Amolad 23:40, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I say go for it. Uncited phrases like that are essentially OR. Girolamo Savonarola 05:19, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

The Nightmare Before Christmas

"Dutch angles are frequently used by film directors who have a background in the visual arts, such as Tim Burton (in The Nightmare Before Christmas, and Ed Wood), and...."

Henry Selick directed The Nightmare Before Christmas, this sentence suggests it was Tim Burton. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.233.176.234 (talk) 22:51, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

"Tilt" vs. "Roll"

The word "tilt" is used by a camera crew to refer to tilting the cameral up or down, like nodding your head. "Roll" is what a dutch angle is, NOT "tilt". The camera rolls off to the side, so that the horizon is not quite horizontal. That is the correct terminology, AFAIK. (I'm a VFX guy, not a camera operator). Problem is, "roll" may be confusing to the general public. So do we use correct terminology or dumb it down for the masses? Since this is an encyclopedic article about cinematography, I say use correct terminology. "Roll" vs "Tilt". 24.211.96.160 (talk) 01:38, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Extensive use in anime

I'm surprised it’s not mentioned. It's frequently found in anime and manga when artists try to fit tall characters into wide frames. Not associated with insanity. E.g. see http://danbooru.donmai.us/wiki/show?title=dutch_angle Lormus (talk) 13:59, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

As someone also points out in the Talk topic Myspace angle (only to be slapped down), it's commonly found in selfies, too. And, unless we'd like to sneak in a sly comment about social media, the intention there can't be to illustrate or suggest madness, either.

Nuttyskin (talk) 23:23, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

"Myspace angle"

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=myspace%20angle Is it an example? Another commonplace usage for this technique, not associated with insanity. Lormus (talk) 14:12, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

No, see below. --79.193.58.68 (talk) 02:14, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Caligari still *NOT* a Dutch angle!

What you're showing with the Caligari still is a high-angle shot, not a Dutch angle-shot. A Dutch angle is defined by tilting your camera to the side so all horizontals and verticals become tilted. Look at the three people in the Caligari still, they're all standing upright, perfectly alligned and parallel to the sides of the picture.

Now, *THIS* is a Dutch angle: [1] See how the clocktower is tilting to the left? That's what a Dutch aka tilted angle-shot is about: Vertical objects tilted left or right. --79.193.58.68 (talk) 02:14, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

The clocktower is the Tolbooth Steeple in Glasgow.

Nuttyskin (talk) 02:23, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

Constructivism?

Not sure I know enough about this subject, but is there a constructivism or Alexander Rodchenko needed somewhere here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Da5nsy (talk • contribs) 19:31, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Passion of Joan of Arc

There is some early use of Dutch angles in The Passion of Joan of Arc 1928 silent film. Occurs at the 24min mark. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.101.143.199 (talk) 14:46, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Monroe shot

Even though she's lying at an angle, the Monroe picture is *NOT* a Dutch angle shot, as the horizon is still horizontal. It's not defined by whether there's any angle in the picture, but by tilting the camera to the side so that the horizon is not horizontal anymore. In terms of shot terminology, the Monroe picture is a high-angle shot, not a Dutch angle. --2003:56:6D1B:C626:6D91:5A6E:8D2C:BBBE (talk) 19:42, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

use of Battlefield_earth_planetship.jpg

In the fair-use rationale for why Battlefield_earth_planetship.jpg is being used at dutch angle: "No free equivalent exists that would effectively identify the article's subject". I find it hard to believe that there's no free picture, as good as this one, that depicts a dutch angle.—msh210℠ 21:30, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

It is not related to the Dutch people or language

Except Dutch and Deutsch have the same origin. Hence, the words are related. Renard Migrant (talk) 14:22, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

The words themselves (and many others across several languages), are ultimately related; but the term "Dutch angle" is not called "Dutch" because it was invented by Dutchmen or is closely associated with Dutch film techniques. Vlaemink (talk) 11:15, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Disambiguation links

Following a revert of my edit adding "disambiguation need tags to Dutch wife and Double Dutch I was asked in an edit summary to elaborate here. Each term links to a disambiguation page. I presume from the text in brackets that Dutch wife should link to Sex doll, but we don't seem to have an article on gibberish on Double Dutch. They can be piped but need to link to an appropriate article so the reader gets to the relevant article for more information.— Rod ^talk 11:18, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Origins according to the OED

I boldly removed the paragraph saying the meaning comes from "Dutch as pejorative" and replaced it with one (with reference) saying it comes from German as the popularisers of the technique, which is the origin given at the Oxford English Dictionary. If there's an authorative film history which says otherwise, we should add it, with some kind of "origin is disputed" or similar wording.

In any case the paragraph about the origins was too long and irrelevant. The "pejorative Dutch from 17th century" meaning of "Dutch" is certainly real and interesting, but it doesn't seem to belong here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.19.3.149 (talk) 10:15, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

A source (a work specialized in etymology, which is to be preferred over a film history website) has been provided the "Dutch"-part being pejorative in origin. The Oxford Etymological Dictionary (OED), while a perfectly valid source, seems to have be misinterpreted/misquoted. It seems that someone has conflated the etymology of "Dutch" (which indeed has a documented medieval/early modern meaning in English, where it could also refer to Germans) with that of "Dutch Angle". However, this is not in the OED and highly if not extremely unlikely because the only information the OED gives on the Dutch Angle, is that the earliest attestation is from 1947. As far as the etymology goes, there only seem to be two options: either "Dutch" is a corruption of "Deutsch", or, "Dutch" is used here in a sense of "wrong/weird/a-typical" as per the reference. Vlaemink (talk) 10:17, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

The full text of Cookies, Coleslaw, and Stoops is available here. Not once is the term "Dutch angle" mentioned. On the other hand, the OED says this in its entry for the term: "The technique was apparently introduced by German Expressionist film-makers: Dutch here is used to mean 'German'". Zacwill (talk) 21:43, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Right, then so much for me relying on other Wikipedians for properly citing sources. I've used the work in question several times now and have no doubt about the reliability of its author, but I guess I should have been more vigilant here. I still think the etymology is quite possible though; there are large amount of terms in which Dutch is added to mean deviant/unusual and there's the similarly named Dutch roll which also deals with a tilted angle; but there's little use in pursuing this without a proper source.

Nevertheless, there is still a problem with the current etymology; because it now implies that "Dutch" here preserves "the original sense of the word Dutch, which was historically a synonym of German". That statement is incorrect in and of itself, but that's not that important right now. Crucially, the OED mentions Dutch means German here; and that's rather different than "preserving a medieval/early modern meaning".

Like I explained above, it's highly dubious that's the case because we're talking about the middle of the 20th century. In British English, Dutch had already come to exclusively refer to the Dutch by the 17th century. In American English, the term remained somewhat ambiguous for some time after that, but it's not really found anymore in American English either after the second half of the 19th century -- and even then, authors like James Fenimore Cooper differentiate between Low Dutch (Dutch) and High Dutch (Germans). Whenever 20th century English uses Dutch to mean or refer to something German, it's typically a corruption of Deutsch (think of figures like Dutch Schultz, Dutch Schaefer or Dutch Ruppersberger), not an archaism.

A quick search seems to confirm this for the Dutch angle as well;

• Melvoin, J. (2023). Running the Show: Television from the Inside, pp. 282: Dutch is thought to be a corruption of Deutsch
• Martin, C. (2024). Applied Screenwriting: How to Write True Scripts for Creative and Commercial Video, pp. 82: Dutch tilts were a hallmark of German Expressionism – the “ Dutch ” is a corruption of Deutsch , the German word for “ German
• Revell, J. (2014). Exposure: From Snapshots to Great Shots, pp. 197: Dutch Angle or German Angle , was originally used in German films in the 1930s . The term Dutch probably came from the word Deutsch
• Pomerance, M. (2020). The Film Cheat: Screen Artifice and Viewing Pleasure, pp. 195: Dutch” angle is not really Dutch but somehow “Dutch” is easier to say than “Deutsch.”
• Mercado, G. (2013). The Filmmaker's Eye: Learning (and Breaking) the Rules of Cinematic Composition, pp. 101 :Deutsch angle” (“Deutsch” is the word for “German” in German) shot, which over time was confused and changed into today's “dutch angle” shot, even though its historic roots have no connection with the cinema of the Netherlands.

There are quite a few more, but I think this is enough to make the point.

I'm going to change the article accordingly, that is, removing any reference to a supposed archaism being in play here; while still keeping the text in line with the OED and the sources mentioned above. Vlaemink (talk) 20:39, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't agree that "Dutch" in this context is a "corruption of 'Deutsch'". In US English, the use of "Dutch" to mean "German" continued right up to the 20th century: the OED has a quotation from 1931 saying "Germans of all kinds are [known as] 'Dutchmen'". In fact, "Dutch" still means "German" in certain contexts (Pennsylvania Dutch). Zacwill (talk) 23:04, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

While you're of course free to disagree with the provided references, it's important not to mix apples and oranges here. The Pennsylvania Dutch emigrated to the Americas in the 17th and 18th century and their native autonym is Deitsche. In this case, it's perfectly possible to have retained 'Dutch' in an archaic sense. In fact, several works give exactly that etymology for "Pennsylvania Dutch". However, like I mentioned before, this is about the etymology of "Dutch angle" -- not about looking up "Dutch" and all its possible meanings over the past 1300 years. Let's remember that the word "Dutch angle" is first attested in 1949. I know of no American scientific or official publication during the 20th century, which uses Dutch to mean German -- and if one were to be found post-1945 (that's following two World Wars and two rounds of severe anti-German sentiment, with the USA liberating/fighting alongside the Dutch in WW2) this would be truly astonishing.

Personally I couldn't find your 1931-quotation in the OED entry on 'Dutch', but I'm sure some examples of localized colloquial use in rural areas of the US with a large German migrant population (like, say, Pennsylvania) can be found for the first part of the 20th century, but this would not constitute General American English nor would mean much for the etymology of "Dutch angle", for reasons described above.

There a large number of publications which explicitly name the 'Dutch' in 'Dutch angle' as a corruption of 'Deutsch'. This, by the way, would constitute a perfectly normal linguistic phenomenon in which a foreign word is approximated by the nearest sounding native word. This is perfectly in line with the OED's statement that it 'means German', because 'Deutsch' means exactly that. Unless some professional etymologist will publish an article on this matter proving or suggesting otherwise, the best we as editors can do not to read too much into the sources that we have.Vlaemink (talk) 11:03, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I couldn't find your 1931-quotation – It appears in the entry for "Dutchman".

I know of no American scientific or official publication during the 20th century, which uses Dutch to mean German – The use of "Dutch" to mean "German" had obviously become colloquial by this point, so it's not surprising that you wouldn't find it in scientific or official publications. Nonetheless, it appears to have been widespread.

There a large number of publications which explicitly name the 'Dutch' in 'Dutch angle' as a corruption of 'Deutsch' – The sources you've adduced were written by experts on film, not experts on language. I doubt any of them were aware that the word "Dutch" meant "German" before it meant "Netherlandish".

This is perfectly in line with the OED's statement – Not really. The OED derives the term from the English words "Dutch" and "angle". It specifically directs the reader to the first definition of "Dutch", which reads: "Of or relating to the people of Germany; German. Obsolete except as a historical archaism, and in some parts of U.S." At no point does it suggest that "Dutch" in this context is a corruption of "Deutsch". Zacwill (talk) 11:31, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

1) Alright then, so that means your 1931 reference did not concern 'Dutch' being used as an adjective meaning "all kinds of Germans", because the word was (colloquially?) 'Dutchman'.

2) So we're agreed that 'Dutch' having a possible double meaning also referring to Germans is not part of General American during the 20th century. I disagree with your assertion that it was widespread in colloquial use, I see no evidence for this.

3) You're free to speculate about the linguistic knowledge of the authors of those books on film techniques, but fact of the matter is that they explicitly provide an etymology; in fact, they all provide the same one.

(By the way, the word 'Dutch' did not mean 'German' before it meant 'Dutch', it could simply also include people most would now refer to as Germans. There's a lot (and I really mean a lot) of German literature on the term available through the Wikipedia Library, which goes far beyond the level and scope of the OED's entry. If you're not proficient in German, the article theodiscus here gives a reasonably good idea of the complexities involved.)

4) Let's not confuse things: the idea that it's a corruption comes from the other 5(+) sources provided, the OED mentions it 'means German'; which perfectly agrees with the other sources. Given the way that the OED is structured and was created, I think it's very dubious to try to infer any special or specific from its redirects to a top entry.

The bottom line seems to be that there a multitude of sources claiming that it's a corruption of 'Deutsch' and the the OED's entry on Dutch angle (a rather niche/specialized term) is a bit ambiguous, but in no way explicitely suggests or states that the 'Dutch' in the 1949 term 'Dutch angle' is a early modern archaism. Vlaemink (talk) 12:51, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not "inferring" anything. The OED explicitly cites the first definition of "Dutch" – the "early modern" definition (which in fact continued to be used in colloquial American English up until the last century). The OED therefore cannot be used as a source for the statement "'Dutch' is a corruption of 'Deutsch'". This is an assertion that appears only in the non-specialist sources. Zacwill (talk) 13:00, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

In support of the statement that "Dutch", meaning "German", was still current in the 20th century, see for instance The Century Dictionary (published 1911), Webster's Student Dictionary (published 1938), and Webster's New World Dictionary (published 1960). Zacwill (talk) 13:27, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

At the moment, the OED entry is being used to support that Dutch refers to German here; completely in line with the source and in agreement with the other source material. If you want to add an alternative etymology, you will need a source that explicitly states that "Dutch angle" is using an archaic meaning of 'Dutch', not that such a meaning existed in the past, because that's not being disputed. The OED is not that source, nor are the dictionaries you've mentioned that attest to the existence of a secondary slang meaning of 'Dutch' referring to German; because these do not state nor prove that "Dutch angle" is using Dutch in an archaic sense. In fact, almost all of your cited dictionaries were published before the attestation of "Dutch angle" whereas the one you mentioned that was, doesn't seem to have "Dutch angle" as an entry.

You're adding too much interpretation and interpolation to these dictionary entries to try and create the version you personally want/prefer; but that's not how this works.

Also why are you unwilling to entertain the thought that 'Dutch' here is a corruption of German 'Deutsch' as 5+ books on film technique are unanimously stating? Why does this seem implausible to you? Vlaemink (talk) 14:55, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

The OED is not that source – I'm repeating myself here, but once again, the OED explicitly links the term "Dutch angle" to the archaic term "Dutch", meaning "German".

Also why are you unwilling to entertain the thought that 'Dutch' here is a corruption of German 'Deutsch' – Because there's no reason to assume that this is the case when "Dutch" already meant "German" in contemporary American slang. Zacwill (talk) 15:03, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

1) I'm also repeating myself, but no, the OED doesn't; it just links to the top entry.

2) I'm just asking out of interest at this point, because the sources in support of it being a corruption clearly stand, but don't you think that the elephant in the room for your theory is that the non-slang, non-colloquial, official, regular, standard meaning of 'Dutch' is clearly Dutch at this point? Vlaemink (talk) 15:37, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

1) Hope this helps.

2) No. There's no reason to suppose that a colloquial name for a particular type of camera shot would use offical, standard terminology. Zacwill (talk) 15:53, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

By the way, it's funny how you started this discussion by saying "a work specialized in etymology [...] is to be preferred over a film history website", but are now using books on filmmaking to prove your point. Zacwill (talk) 16:02, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

With all due respect, but let's keep this discussion factual rather than make to try and make it personal.

When I responded to the IP-adres here, I trustingly, though mistakenly, assumed the citation provided in the article was correct, because, as I've stated before, the source itself is a reliable and valid one, and one specifically focused on the etymology of Dutch-related terms in the English language. Similarly, the IP-adres was also mistaken, as it assumed the OED entry claimed it was due to Germans popularizing of the technique — which, as we now know, the OED does not. Then there is your position, which is based around a highly interpretative reading of the OED entry, in which, so you claim, this 1949 word is in fact an archaism, or, I believe, in your most recent revision, American slang.

I'd like to stress, that my personal position (that the 'Dutch' in 'Dutch angle' comes from 'Dutch' in a sense of unusual/off/a-typical, as in the strikingly similar concept of Dutch roll) is not even part of the equation anymore. I couldn't find any valid source for that and that means, however logical it may sound to me, it can't be in the article. So me disputing your personal reading of the OED and giving preference (per WP:SOURCE) to the 5+ valid referenced that state it's a corruption of 'deutsch' is not, in anyway, me trying to prove 'my point' — which is different all together.

Fact of the matter is that after evaluating and/or actually reading all the previously provided sources, there are now 5+ (note: I've since gathered around 10 more) new sources which explicitly state that the 'Dutch' in 'Dutch angle' is a corruption or approximation of the German word 'deutsch', which means 'German'; which are to be preferred especially since the align with the (again, ambiguous) entry found in the OED.

Instead of now trying to exclude these numerous explicit sources in favor of your personal interpretation of the OED entry, I'd suggest you do the same as I've done; which is to put aside personal POV in favor of what can be reliably and unambiguously supported by valid sources. You've brought in the Pennsylvania Dutch, a 1931 entry on Dutchman and 4 dictionaries which don't even contain the word Dutch angle ... I think it's time to wearing rose-colored glasses and look at what is actually there, which is a OED entry which says that it means 'German' here and suggest to compare it to the top entry, which (among other things) states that Dutch could mean German in American slang. I think there's no point in trying to stretch those four/five words to fit a personal theory. If there were other sources on the etymology of 'Dutch angle', which supported your view or alluded to it, then this would changes matters; but you have yet to provide these — and even then, given the large amount of sources claiming it's a corruption of 'deutsch', it would have to share the page.

As this discussion is now starting to drag on a bit, I'll ask you bluntly: do you have these? Do you have a source that explicitly says 'Dutch angle' is either American slang or an archaism in support of your interpretation of the OED entry? Just to be clear, I'm not referring to imgur-uploads of old dictionaries or other OED entries on different terms that fit your preferred frame, but an explicit non-ambiguous reference similar to those (in the clarity of their wording) that state it's a corruption of 'deutsch'? Vlaemink (talk) 09:11, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

The IP-adres was also mistaken, as it assumed the OED entry claimed it was due to Germans popularizing of the technique — which, as we now know, the OED does not. What are you talking about? This is exactly what the OED claims. Do I have to draw another diagram for you? Zacwill (talk) 11:09, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

At this point, I think you're here for a debate, not a discussion. No, you do need to draw me a diagram and, no, you also do not need to upload anymore pictures of old yellowed dictionaries that predate the first attestation of the word 'Dutch angle'.

There is something you could do though (in addition to providing the requested separate source supporting your position) and that is to take a closer look at the OED entry on 'Dutch', because that would tell you that this particular entry was published in 1897 and is yet to be revised. A similarly close look at the 'Dutch angle' entry, would not only tell you that this entry is from 2018 but also that 'Dutch' here (just hover your mouse over it) is linked to "Of, relating to, or characterizing the ‘Low Dutch’ people of Holland and the Netherlands.".

In other words, you've tried to link a word from ~1947, to an entry published half a century prior to its first attestation, with a source that (at best) contradicts itself.

I think that given all that and all that's been previously said, that, unless a convincing sources appears dissenting from the ones now present, this matter ends here. If you want this to drag this on even further than it already should have by requesting an RFC, be my guest. Vlaemink (talk) 11:58, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps the discussion wouldn't have dragged on so long if you hadn't repeatedly lied about what the OED actually says? First you said that it contained no relevant information, then you said that it didn't specifically endorse the claim, and now you're saying that it "contradicts itself". None of this is true. Zacwill (talk) 12:12, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

The intention of uploading "old yellowed dictionaries", by the way, was to disprove your assertion that the older sense of "Dutch" became obsolete in the 19th century, which was also a lie. Zacwill (talk) 12:19, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

If that what you want to believe, that's fine. The lack of responds to either my request for a new, unambiguous, source or my suggestion to open a RFC if you still think you're in the right, however suggests we are, at last, done here. Have a nice weekend! Vlaemink (talk) 12:38, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

In the absence of better sources, yes, the popular etymology given in filmmaking textbooks will have to stay in the article. I have at least amended the section so that it isn't presenting this dubious claim as a concrete fact. Zacwill (talk) 13:04, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

For what it's worth, there is at least one source which supports your theory that "Dutch" in this context means "out of the ordinary". This is all the more reason not to present the "Deutsch" theory as uncontested fact. Zacwill (talk) 20:35, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Please stick to the facts, or at the very least to what has been actually said: I have never favored presenting "Dutch/Deutsch" as an uncontested fact, if only for the simple reason that I (personally) believe that it's wrong. I also think your theory, that this 1947, highly specialized, film industry word is somehow an archaic leftover, is wrong. The only reason why the first theory is in the article and the second one is not, is that the second theory lacks proper and clear sources. I am however very grateful for digging up a reliable expert source on the theory that the adjective "Dutch" is used here to mean "strange", because this means 'my theory' is now supported by literature, and I will gladly add this alternative etymology to the article. Vlaemink (talk) 09:31, 7 October 2024 (UTC)